/asatru/ - Asatru / Heathenry / Paganism

>>1283

There's a similar thread here:

>>29

Hey mods, is it okay if I Post a whole song onto the board? Its a little long and my computer is not letting me attach files. However it is an edited version of a very obscure poem, The Song of the Sun, so I think it has value in being posted.

Related to this thread >>5081

>>4127

UPDATE:

I absolutely loved it and since then saw one other Opera, which was also great. Of course the focus was on Christian imagery and the only Heathen in the piece was, sorta, the villain. But that that didn't bother me since the music was great.

A few weeks later I also found out that the saga of Lohengrin is based on the older Saga of "Skeaf", who as a baby boy naked and with all sorts of goods, weapons and jewelry landed alone in a boat on a coast. People found him and saw his high nature. They thought he was sent by a god and eventually elected him to be the first king of the Angles. His son was called Skild and was a popular prince. He owever long was without a son, but as he was old his son Beowulf was born. As the old king died, his people put his body on a gorgeous boat, together with loads of weapons and jewels. Then they let the boat into the sea and let the floods control its course.

>>5485

Update II:

How did I not realize the obvious parallels of the "Knight of the Swan" tale to the Valkyries? I love how this adds to the story. It's basically a heathen story with a thin Christian layer.

What sound do you guys associate with ravens and crows? I mean how would it be written onomatopoeic wise?

t. not English native

Would Viking Metal be accepted in a Asatru society?

>>5896

I've wondered about this too, and although I'm not personally a fan of metal I think it would honestly. Some bands like Tyr endeavor to make the lyrics somewhat spiritual and the whole idea is spiritual in a way; using guitars powered by Thor, drumming and singing, the whole thing can be seen as offering to the gods in musical form

>>5805

The English onomatopoeia for a crow or raven's call is "caw, caw, caw".

>>5896

Viking Metal is not a real genre it is usually folk/Black metal with viking lyrics. But I would not see the problem with it being asatru considering how it sings the glory of our ancestors. Anyone who says otherwise is a contrarian faggot. Metal is as masculine as you can get music wise. Ibn Fadlahn said that the Kievan Rus' singing were like dogs barking. So maybe they growled IDK or something close to it. Does not matter Galdr is a form of magic Germanics used it was a chant to be sung. It is a musical magic.

Folk metal or "Viking metal" can be seen as a form of Galdr especially if you get into Burzum and read or watch Varg. His music can be seen as Galdr magic.

>>5898

Thanks.

What does Asatru say about loneliness? I'm ugly as fuck with no friends / girlfriend.

>>6264

The pine tree wastes which is perched on the hill,

nor bark nor needles shelter it;

such is the man whom none doth love;

why should he linger in life?

Go out and make some friends man, ugliness does not matter if you present yourself well. Make friends first, if you're an ugly single dude with no friends girls will always find you creepy. Women are attracted to status and alpha behavior and a part of that is having friends, even having 2 or 3 really close friends will show you are loyal

>>6264

To his friend a man should bear him as friend,

and gift for gift bestow,

laughter for laughter let him exchange,

but leasing pay for a lie.

This is kind of related in a roundabout way. You should make friends at work and pick up a few hobbies like shooting were you'll meet other cool dudes and have something to give them more than just your company.

>>6264

If your ugliness isn't stemming from your face then lose weight and make yourself proud of your body. If your body is fine but your a bit ugly it shouldn't matter too much.

Here i suggest you do this Personality test and learn more about yourself.

http://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test

I'm a personality type that is introverted and logical. I don't really need human interaction as much as some personalities do. So i usually only had one best friend at a time who i saw outside of school to either play videogames or Music with. But i now have no friends because I'm not interested in playing music anymore and my old Friend isn't red pilled and would probably have a shit fit if i said nigger, that and he smokes weed occasionally and i went to his house after not seeing him for ages and he had a fat wiccan girlfriend. I would rather have no GF than that monster.

I'm sure ill find a new best friend at some point though but a GF is harder as I lack experience.

The thing that you need if your calling yourself a loser is confidence, get that and you should get friends and a girlfriend easier.

I work out, started dieting recently and I'm learning a second language, little things like that help with confidence and make you feel like your accomplishing something.

/r/ number of Asatru in world?

I know many of you believe in the Gods allegorically, but do you believe in an afterlife? Also what decides if you go to Valhalla or are reincarnated?

Some Christians may take the bible allegorically but they still believe in heaven.

>>7173

My understanding:

You are not one single entity. Different parts of you (flesh, consciousness, intellect, etc) become different things. I personally don't believe in Valhalla but if it's real there's a part of you that goes there.

Seems like a lot of our visitors can't see this thread because it's not on page 1.

Do you believe in your religion because of its mundane/societal benefits? Or do you believe because you are actually convinced that it is the true faith regardless of it being good for the world? If the former, can you truly say that you believe in the gods literally, or would you admit that you simply adhere to a philosophy rather than a true theistic religion?

>>7415

"Which religion is the one true faith?" is an extremely Abrahamic sort of question to ask. This cosmological aspect of Judeochristian thought is nonsensical and is largely without precedent among genuine European faiths.

What most of us here believe is that it is not really a question of "which faith is the true faith", but rather a question of "which faith is our faith". The totalitarian, exclusionary view of the Semitic monotheists – that there is one god for all of reality and that all other gods are false gods – is not a proposition addressed by most adherents to heathen belief. We follow the indigenous gods of our European ancestors, not because of any hubristic philosophical wankery that says they are the true gods and everyone else's beliefs are false, but because they are ours. They are manifestations of our race-soul's relationship to the universe and to reality beyond it.

Belief in the gods among European polytheists today ranges from people who see them as a sort of Jungian symbolic language originating entirely within the European folk, all the way to those who endorse a hard polytheistic view that they are distinct divine beings with consciousness and who can take physical form in our world. Most heathen belief, however, falls somewhere in the middle, with adherents endorsing the divinity of the gods of the pantheon with an acknowledgement that many aspects ascribed to them originate from within the folk consciousness, or considering them as elevations of ancient human ancestors whose lives passed into legend and received the same sort of ascription.

Your question that artificially divides the experience of faith into "mundane/societal" aspects and "true theistic" aspects also displays a narrowly Semitic monotheistic perspective. Most heathens would endorse a "world-accepting" view of the role of faith that emphasizes the importance of life in this world over some vague promise of another life after death. For example, the most famous passage of the Hávamál ("Deyr fé, deyja frændr…") addresses this rather directly. It is a core part of our spirituality and the way in which we honor the gods that we focus on uniting and lifting up our folk. These are not opposed goals, as in the Abrahamic "world-rejecting" perspective, where the core focus of faith is on obtaining rewards in the afterlife.

All of this has been explained here before numerous times, of course. Please do click on the one stickied thread and consult our FAQ, but do feel free to ask here for any clarification you would like on basic information about Asatru or contemporary European polytheistic faiths in general.

>>7416

Thank you for the response, but I'm still confused. Do you believe in objective truth or not? How could the Germanic gods be true for the Germanic people, while the (for example) Hindu gods are true for the Indian people? I could understand this being logical if you said that the Germanic gods are simply non-literal archetypes which are compatible with the Germanic race/culture, while the Indian gods are better (non-literal) representations of the Indian "race-spirit" but if I understand correctly you say that your gods are both literally true as well as race-specific.

>>7447

You know how you have grandparents, and your buddy next door has grandparents, right? And how they're not the same people, but they serve some of the same roles in your lives, yes?

It's like that.

>>7471

So you, as a Norse pagan, believe that the gods of India are real, but you don't worship them because they aren't associated with your ancestors? Do Norse gods ever interact with Indian ones? If both pantheons are true, why do people only worship small chunks of the thousands of gods/goddesses based on race? Would you say that the God of Abraham is real too? In that case, would you say that the Bible or Qur'an are true scriptures and descriptions of (one) God and his will?

>>7475

>So you, as a Norse pagan,

My ancestors are largely from central and western continental Europe and the British Isles, so I wouldn't say I am "Norse pagan". But of course my practice is influenced by Norse and Icelandic sources, as is the case for most Germanic heathens.

>believe that the gods of India are real,

They are certainly as real to the Hindus I know from school and from work as my gods are to me. They offer to their gods as I offer to mine. Their understanding of the divine is different, of course, because they come from a different ancestry with a different culture that developed in a different part of the world. When visiting in their homes I have always been respectful of their shrines, not rooting around in them or handling their idols or asking intrusive questions. I would expect the same from them.

>but you don't worship them because they aren't associated with your ancestors?

Right, I focus on the traditions that are native to my own people. These are the traditions that have influenced our folklore and culture and language and are the best way for me to relate to the divine.

>Do Norse gods ever interact with Indian ones?

Like a crossover episode? No, I wouldn't look at it that way. It's better to understand the relationship between the various branches of the Proto-Indo-European family of faiths in the same way that you would approach the Proto-Indo-European family of languages. The main connection between the Hindu gods and the Germanic gods is in their own mythological ancestry: Tiws (Scandinavian Tyr, Proto-Germanic Tiwaz) is connected etymologically to the Greek god Zeus, to the Roman god Jupiter, and to the Vedic god Dyaus Pita. These are all regional-cultural outgrowths of the ancient Proto-Indo-European god Dyeus Pater (literally, "sky father").

The connections between traditional PIE pantheons of different cultures are not really something to model as parallel interoperable cosmologies where their gods would literally ride over to Asgard and hang out with Thor and Odin. A better way to look at it is that the Hindu cosmology shares a common PIE ancestor with the Germanic cosmology.

>If both pantheons are true, why do people only worship small chunks of the thousands of gods/goddesses based on race?

Why do you and I speak a Germanic language while the Indian H1Bs at my office prefer Hindi?

A faith is not intrinsically an exclusive claim on the nature of reality beyond the observable universe. Today that sort of totalitarian view is a peculiarity of Abrahamic cosmology.

>Would you say that the God of Abraham is real too?

To Jews? Yahweh is quite obviously a native god of the Hebrew people. It would be nonsensical for an ethnic Jew to worship a god like Thor, totally foreign to his people. It is every bit as nonsensical for a European to worship Yahweh, a god equally foreign to his own folk.

>In that case, would you say that the Bible or Qur'an are true scriptures and descriptions of (one) God and his will?

True? Like reading a newspaper article and evaluating it for its adherence to facts about the observable universe? No, absolutely not. That is a gross misunderstanding of the value religious mythology. To chase after physical truths in a religious text is absolute folly.

Or true, like a text that contains fundamental cultural truths relevant to the Hebrew people? Yes, absolutely. The Torah and the other books of the Tanakh have been with the Jews for thousands of years and its relevance to them is readily apparent.

Much as the Christian bible is a degenerated patchwork of ancient Semitic mythology and scraps of various Greek schools, the Quran is a dog's breakfast of Semitic mythology and Meccan paganism. Neither of these collections is a faithful and authentic expression of the native religious beliefs of any culture on Earth. The search for authentic folkish lore in the Christian bible or in the Quran would be something you execute with a very large box of razor blades and a very small amount of glue.

>>7479

Ah. So you would say that you and Hindus worship some of the same literal cosmological entities, but with different names and different cultural archetypes imposed on them by your respective cultures? You believe in an objective truth, however you believe that man's attempt to know the Divine Mystery can take many different semi-successful equally valid forms? If the God of the Jews is real, how do you explain his claim of being the only God? Is he simply lying? Would you say that Yhwh's claim of exclusivity is "real to the Jewish people, but not to others"? Why are Christianity and Islam not given the same treatment as pagan religions? Christianity may have begun in the middle east, but it certainly reflects western values and culture even though it was not the original religion of the area. In fact, I would argue that Christianity has had a greater effect on most western cultures than paganism has, so someone who wants to worship the god(s) which best represent their nation would find that in Christianity. Similarly, Arab culture is literally 100% based around Islam. Should an Arab really worship the pre-Islamic gods whose "nation-spirit" is probably very foreign to him?

>>7484

>If the God of the Jews is real, how do you explain his claim of being the only God? Is he simply lying? Would you say that Yhwh's claim of exclusivity is "real to the Jewish people, but not to others"?

He doesn't claim to be the only god. He commands the Jews to have no god before him. This is a very frequently misunderstood aspect of the Jewish scriptures.

>Why are Christianity and Islam not given the same treatment as pagan religions?

They're multiculti casserole faiths.

>Christianity may have begun in the middle east, but it certainly reflects western values and culture even though it was not the original religion of the area. In fact, I would argue that Christianity has had a greater effect on most western cultures than paganism has

You have it backwards. European polytheism has had a great effect on Christianity. Have you ever researched why it's called Easter? Why Christmas is celebrated at Yuletide? The origin of the veneration of saints? Christianity is a thin Semitic veneer over native religious practices. The universalism and slave morality is inspires are harmful and should be cut away, along with all the foreign texts that brought them.

>Similarly, Arab culture is literally 100% based around Islam. Should an Arab really worship the pre-Islamic gods whose "nation-spirit" is probably very foreign to him?

Did you ever wonder why they're so obsessed with the moon? Ever research the origins of the hajj rituals at Mecca? Most of what is beautiful and ancient about Arab religious practices is left over from pre-Islamic practices as well. It's the Semitic influence and the Mohemmedan hodgepodge texts that have turned their faith into a totalitarian all-consuming instrument of cultural genocide, and that likewise should be cut away.

In fact, it doesn't even matter whether pre-Islamic faith is a better cultural fit for the Arab world. At this point, Islam has become such a grave threat to the survival of other cultures that it's absolutely imperative that Islam as we know it be wiped out, before there's nothing left anywhere in the world to hear but blaring adhans and gunfire, and nothing left to see but Arabic calligraphy and black polyester ghosts swarming in the streets.

>>7485

So you say that any culture's attempt to understand the gods is valid, but Christianity's and Islam's are not valid because the group that practices them covers multiple culture groups, and isn't linked to one particular race/culture? Why does that invalidate them? Why the obsession with race? Can't a multicultural group of people with a shared faith come closer to understanding God(s) regardless of their race? Is there some kind of supernatural element to race that I'm missing here? I believe that race is simply genetic differences in body structure, and culture is a mundane thing; does heathenism say it's more than that? Also, are non PIE religions "valid"? What about the gods of China? Japan? Native America? The Pacific? Africa? Their gods don't fit in with the archetypes and patterns present in European and Indian pantheons, so would you say that their attempt at comprehending the unknowable nature of the gods is simply less successful than yours is? Or do the literal cosmological entities in reality have no definable characteristics by man? For example, the entity which asatruers call Thor wields a hammer and controls lightning. Could a native American religion, for example, believe that that same entity is a woman who carries a staff and causes earthquakes, and would both of them be equally valid apprehensions of that entity's nature? Does the entity known as Thor *actually* have a gender, a preferred weapon, and a natural phenomenon or is he simply an unknowable spirit who accepts whatever cultural values are imposed on him?

Does anyone have reliable info on galdr? I've read about it in a few contemporary rune books that have lyrics for "runic chants" that basically are just pronouncing the letter in multiple ways but I don't see anything in the lore that seems to state this. In the havamal and the spells of groa, it appears to more of an actual chant with incantations and words and not just mumbling letters.

if anyone has any reliable info on the chants called galdr please let me know

>>7488

>So you say that any culture's attempt to understand the gods is valid,

No I didn't. You asked about a couple of specific ones and I responded to those.

> Why the obsession with race? Can't a multicultural group of people with a shared faith come closer to understanding God(s) regardless of their race?

No, I'm not aware of any substantial successes of multiculturalism.

>Also, are non PIE religions "valid"? What about the gods of China? Japan? Native America? The Pacific? Africa?

I don't know enough about them to answer that. Stop looking for a Unified Fucking Theory of Everything, it's a waste of your time and mine.

It seems to me that so much about Asatru is connected to the land.

But not only do I live on a different continent from my ancestors, I also live in a massive city. I am quite removed from nature. How can I feel any connection to the gods of my ancestors?

>>7553

Live in a rural community. Wait until Europe is purged, then move there.

My family is almost all european, besides a grandparent that is half european half native american, I allways felt that Christianity was not for me, they only managed to manipulate me and put fear. I did find in paganism the peace I wanted, and also it feels that it is what I was looking for. How should I proceed? I am thinking about marring with a woman from a light mixed family as mine, because I don't want to break an pure family as they did with my own. I would like to get some light on what people in my situation should do.

>>7625

I have pretty much the same genetic situation that you do. My advice is to not taint the purity of others, but preserve your own. Find a woman who is in the same situation as you and raise your children right.

Im new here, coming from christianity.

Jesus said to love people and love God

Doesn't paganism say the same? We should love our people and our ancestors, and honour (love) our gods.

>>7963

There are, of course exceptions. What does one do with homosexuals? With drug abusers? With illegal immigrants?

We love our Nations, our Gods and our Peoples. Thereby a faithful of the Gods will work towards the healthy benefit of our Peoples, Nations and Gods. It is simply as "moral" as Christianity was/is

May wisdom come to you

>>7964

It's easier for me to understand Paganism this way, through Christianity.

I stay away from sin because i love God, i do fasting, prayer, whatever. It gives me meaning to do this, otherwise why should i not go drinking, stealing, raping and killing?

The existance of a God also makes you not have a huge ego. For example, new agers have this huge ego about themselves; "im enlightened, im full of peace, love and joy". If we strive towards peace and joy for the sake of someone else, be it our ancestors or a God, it give motivation and a whole different meaning.

>>7965

Our ancestors became Christian in a similar way. We understood the values in monogamy, virtue, heritage, respect and in fact Hero worship.

Note that in Catholicism we have saint worship, such as saint George. Otherwise known as Hero worship, and in European heathenism dragon slaying is a common motif. People can claim that Heathens were immoral or unjust. In Reality most European peoples dealt with Homosexuals accordingly: Death. With adulterers: Shame and/or exile. In Heathenism we stay away from Sin not only because it is unnatural and degenerative, but also because Heathenism is a trade off. Not a cheap buy in scheme to renounce sin instantly, to receive good gifts in life and in death, one must act nobly and with good intent at heart. That does mean being a cuck, it's more similar to buying from a white owned grocery store instead of an Indians store and helping your neighbours

We do not have a huge ego, I can assure you. Heathens are in fact most often devout and believe firmly once they get in to it

The European faith is, in a massive way about Values, Virtues, Tradition, Community, Celebration. It's where Patron gods come from too

Where is the best place to learn about Druidism/Irish Paganism?

Anyone I've met who claimed to be a 'celtic pagan' was just a wiccan, vegan (the stupid kind, who fills their diet with shitty processed junkfoods) tool.

How do you define someone that is genetically "Germanic"? I1 or R1b haplogroups?

How are you meant to be taken seriously when all that was written about the Norse pagans come from outsiders, none who practiced the faith?

Also check em

>>8111

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Regius

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga#Background

The skaldic poetry and tales of heroes were passed down and preserved in Christian times through an oral tradition which were eventually written down by monks.

While they were not written down by practicioners there is a chain of heritage which goes back to pre-Christian Scandinavia.

>>8091

I don't know of any reliable historical sources for information on Druidism. Caesar wrote something on the Gauls and the Druid's place in their society but it's widely regarded as bad scholarship. It's very likely that he made things up or distorted the truth so he could get more support for his conquests.

>>8116

I believe I read some of that, it was called bad scholarship because he basically said the Celtic gods were just the Roman gods under different names.

Is there any good moderate Asatru organization in the US?

I think the schism between folkish and universalist Asatru is killing us. I am right in the middle–I believe race and sexuality and such are non-issues. I don't care about those attributes–I judge a person blindly according to their skills and moral character–but I believe it's each individual's job to handle any negative shit other people give them for who they are. None of this heathens against hate bullshit, if you can't handle other people's ridicule, you're weak and I'm not going to help make society coddle you.

Is there an organization in the US with an outlook along those lines? Everything I've seen is either fuck-non-whites folkish or heathens-against-hate universalist, it's either one extreme or the other.

>>8170

Asatru Folk Assembly is Folkish (but not skinhead whitepower 88 gas the kikes).

Most non-folkish groups stand for nothing and are rife with sjw larpers inspired by the Thor movie.

I have had no interaction with members of The Troth but I have begun reading Our Troth volume one and it seems ok thus far, the articles on archeology, linguistics, discovery and revival are pretty interesting. Dissects aryan culture pretty well and juxtaposes aryan cultural theories with indigenous ones (apparently the Germanic cultures were less directly effected by aryan culture so possess unique primordial European traits).

The Troth split from the Asatru Alliance when they got their feeling hurt by some members who thought it really ought be for those with blood connections to the ancient practioners.

>>8171

edred thorson's connection to temple of set satanism had a smidge to do with it as well.

>>8112

if we want to go further, its been implied that snorri sturluson's father held odin in high regard (such that a woman tried to blind him with a knife to "make him like his hero, odin").

if "closeted" paganism survived this long…

>>8388

If you can't figure out why pornography is degenerate then I don't think there's much hope for you.

Who is the christcuck moderator on /pol/ who keeps locking anti-christcuck threads?

>>8392

Not the guy you were replying to but I wonder the same thing.

I never really watched a lot of porn until I was deployed to Afghanistan. I hit the point where I watched porn when I woke up and went to be bed. Sometimes fairly vanilla stuff and sometimes anal creampie swapping gangbangs.

Was that degenerate?

Should I have just abstained for >6 months?

>>9309

My first response is that I think degeneracy is like bad eating. A healthier person is harmed less by it than an unhealthy person who partakes habitually. Anyone can survive a little, but a life filled with it will descend into hopelessness and decay. We should strive for a society that eliminates it, but should never expect to be completely successful. So, then, the response to degeneracy should not be to expel anyone who takes the slightest whiff of it. It should be to promote clean and healthy living, and to deny public attention to those who peddle it. So, a brief period of degeneracy does not necessarily turn you into "a degenerate" any more than eating one slice of pie turns you into "a fatass".

My second response is that the rules of social conduct for men at war are different from those for people at home in peacetime. Having not been to war myself I will not presume to pontificate on how you and your unit should behave.

>>9903

I posted in another thread that if your parents named you something cucked a good compromise is to have your kinship rename you. I think you lose some of the magic of being named if you do it yourself and it cuts some of the larp factor (MY NAME IS GRIMNIR THUNDERAXE!!).

It just seems wholesome and right to have somebody else name you, but obviously your parents failed at that duty.

>>9911

I haven't, since I'm still in that inbetween phase.

I leaning towards this, but I'm not committing yet because I have no clue about my ancestry, since I was given up for adoption at birth.

I think it would be imprudent to be asatruar if I end up being latin or slav.

>>9912

Don't fall for the 23andme meme and sell your genes to jews. Get working on genealogy before the jews completely subvert that too (they're in the middle of it right now, get going!).

I'll tell you this though, in any research I've done it seems most authentic slavic heathenry vanished due to the prevalence of willing conversion and the lack of pre-christian writings. You might as well be an asatruar even if you were an ivan ivanoslav unless there's some massive body of research that only exists in vodkarunes.

>Latin

Latin as in Caesar Augustus? Or "latin" as in Cesar Lopéz? Nothing at all wrong with Jupiter. Tlaloc, on the other hand…

>>9913

Well, I just want to make sure I'm apart of the proper kin before I go making any leaps.

I actually had flirtations with asatru earlier in life, but fell off for the same reason.

>23andme

I wasn't going to use them. There's plenty of alternatives, from what I understand.

Is ancestry.com good, or has it become kosher?

>most authentic Slavic heatherny vanished

Shit. Well, from what I understand the Finns have preserved their folkways well enough they're not slavic, technically, but I don't rule it out

>Latin as in Caesar Augustus?

Of course. The mudskins of South America don't deserve to call themselves latin.

Amerindian is the better term.

If it helps, I'm a very tall guy with a broad figure.

Only problem is is that I have somewhat curly/wavy hair. Not afro kinky, but I'm afraid I might have semite down the line.

>>9915

>Is ancestry.com good, or has it become kosher?

>Ancestry.com LLC is a privately held Internet company based in Provo, Utah, United States.

Looks to be a mormon enterprise, not sure how good of goy that lot are. Can't you demand to know the name of your parents as an adult? You wouldn't even need to meet them, you could just dredge public records knowing their names.

As for your genetics, I'm not sure if they outsource to a kosher lab or not.

>Shit. Well, from what I understand the Finns have preserved their folkways well enough

There's rodnoverie and ynglism, but I cannot attest to the authenticity of either. I read cyrillic but don't have the vocabulary to really say I read any particular language. Most text regarding either are in russian so….

en*wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodnovery

en*wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynglism

Links broken because muh secret clubhouse

I can't tell if they're LARPing or not based on what is available in english, however. We have a few english texts but they're hard to corroborate.

>If it helps, I'm a very tall guy with a broad figure.

If I tore off that mjölnir, would you die?

>>9916

>Can't you demand to know the name of your parents

That's the thing, they didn't go through an adoption agency, they went through a lawyer.

My mother (adoptive) has no clue who they are or what their name is.

At this rate, a genetic test is the best option for me.

>mormons

I trust mormons more than Jews, so it's worth a shot I think.

>If I tore off that mjölnir, would you die?

It would be extremely shocking.

>>9917

>That's the thing, they didn't go through an adoption agency, they went through a lawyer.

>My mother (adoptive) has no clue who they are or what their name is.

I'm pretty sure I had read in a legal journal a case where it was passed down you had the right to know your birth parents ethnicity and medical information scrubbed of identifying info for your own health and medical wellbeing (e.g. bone marrow matching down the line). That might be a state, not federal, case though.

>I trust mormons more than Jews, so it's worth a shot I think.

I guess it can't hurt if you're out of options.

>It would be extremely shocking.

Was getting converted part of your plan?

>>9918

I'm not sure about the legalities surrounding adoption in my home state, so I'll have to do some research and see if I can viably get records.

If not, ancestryDNA it is.

>Was getting converted part of your plan?

Of coursh!

>>9919

If nothing else I'm sure if you explained your situation to a local kinship and also explained you were a heathen regardless of your blood (what you learn about your blood may merely change what precise heathenry you follow) they would at least let you show up. I mean, if you find your the grandson of Augustus or Boudica what are you really going to do? Fly to italy tomorrow? Hang out with wiccans? If nothing else you'd be amongst fellow pre-christians and I'm sure most wouldn't mind, even the hardcore völkisch would understand your predicament of being without local folk and at least let you socialise with fellow pre-christians at general kinship gatherings (even if you weren't allowed at sacred group rituals or something).

>Of coursh!

Well, what's the next step in your brilliant plan?!

>>9920

>Fly to italy tomorrow?

Nah, but I would like to go back to the land of my ancestors at some point.

>Hang out with wiccans?

KEK, I'd sooner become a Jew.

>general kinship gatherings

Well, I suppose it's worth a shot. Even better to get familiar if I'm actually germanic.

>Well, what's the next step in your brilliant plan?!

To burn this church, with no survivors!

I have trouble understanding the tale of Baldr.

So we know what happens to him (killed by mistletoe), but is he dead already?

Has Ragnarok started? If so, how long has it been going on?

If not, how do we know about Baldr's death? Is it meant to be taken as a prophecy?

Sorry for the ignorance.

>>9923

>So we know what happens to him (killed by mistletoe), but is he dead already?

He sits in hel's hall, yes. He exists, just not present in the greater world tree.

>Has Ragnarok started? If so, how long has it been going on?

Impossible to tell short of seven year winters or giant wolves running around or giant men with sparking hammers chasing world-sized snakes. Kind of feels like it sometimes, doesn't it?

>If not, how do we know about Baldr's death? Is it meant to be taken as a prophecy?

He will be reborn after the completion of ragnarok and the next turn of the cycle. There are many theological questions that come from all that though. Will Odin/Thor/Freyr/Everybody be reborn too? Is it perhaps a message that out of the chaos of each cycle only "the light of hope" survives when all else has been destroyed? And that new gods will have to be fashioned later just as new kings must replace the dead? Is it an allegory for general reincarnation? All of the above?

Has anyone worked on an FAQ in regards to the objections Christians bring up?

>>9931

Get me a list of objections and I'll be able to make a list of rebuttals. I'm much too busy with pre-christian theology and spreading the original faith to listen to all of the prattlings-on of the practitioners of semitic slave morality. Other than "LAL LARPIGEONS" and "OY VEUS GEVULT!" what do they even have? It's like /pol/ and /leftypol/, one of them builds their identity on being "not-thing" to our thing and have weak as fuck undank memes that only the already converted like.

>>9933

Here's a list of objections I could think of off the top of my head:

>Wouldn't one god make more logical sense?

>If there are many gods, doesn't that mean they're weaker than one god?

>If you're not a universal religion, how can you speak on a moral basis?

>What about the great recorded miracles attributed to the church? Doesn't that disprove your silly paganism?

I'm sure there's more they would come up with, but it never hurts to compile a rebuttal.

>>9934

Well ,off the top of my head back:

>Wouldn't one god make more logical sense?

Would one life make more logical sense? What kind of question is this? Name me one other thing in all of creation that is one-of-a-kind phenomenon other than the whole of the universe itself.

>If there are many gods, doesn't that mean they're weaker than one god?

If there are many mean, doesn't that mean they're weaker than one man?

>If you're not a universal religion, how can you speak on a moral basis?

If you're a universal religion, how can you speak on a moral basis to so many kinds of people and spirits?

>What about the great recorded miracles attributed to the church? Doesn't that disprove your silly paganism?

What about the great recorded deeds attributed to david copperfield. Doesn't that disprove both our silly religions? Besides, the point wasn't that the semites don't have gods capable of deeds, merely that they're inferior gods for our people and their followers breed weakness amongst our midst for their true followers to take advantage of.

You're right, something a bit more authoritative and sourced could be very useful, though. I have several contemporary anti-christian roman texts sitting on my desk which I'm sure could also make for some enlightened argumentation, from the mouths of the followers of the original gods themselves.

>>9935

> Besides, the point wasn't that the semites don't have gods capable of deeds, merely that they're inferior gods for our people

I think this is the biggest thing a Christian (or Jew and Muslim, for that matter) cannot comprehend.

The fact that we don't want everyone to hold the same religious views. If they were to argue against that, give them a friendly reminder that the Jews felt the same way about non-Jews for quite a long time.

>You're right, something a bit more authoritative and sourced could be very useful

That's the one thing the Abrahamaic faiths have that trumps us: a clearly organized codex and response to questions.

Not to mention that they've been so ingrained into society that people automatically assume the Judeo-Christian precepts without questioning their basis.

>>9936

>Well clearly that one god is winning lelkeks :^)

Not at Constantinople, Antioch, and Jerusalem :^^^)

Seriously, if they're going to use conquest and "winning" as a metric, all the more reason to remind them of the atrocities done to Christians and the land they've lost.

>>9937

>That's the one thing the Abrahamaic faiths have that trumps us: a clearly organized codex and response to questions.

We're already working on this actually. You're welcome to check out the PDFs thread or hop onto tox. It's mostly book club and book collecting, but as we add more texts and read more the theological discussions are getting much more grounded and expansive. I'm procrastinating from some monastic type text compiling to bake bread and answer questions today. I should probably stop that….

B024E8C4941418ED148C21370B398093D24272B21F7058D427170560D81D422D3110AF54AB5F

>Not at Constantinople, Antioch, and Jerusalem :^^^)

Also good points. But mine was that our gods alone are waging eternal war against their faith that requires the constant attention of YHWHs mortals to counteract, regardless of if our faith has any followers or not; trees collapsing churches, time unpoisoning minds, blood singing in the ears of men of their true origins. What does YHWH alone do robbed of followers? From ∞-300ad he didn't exist here despite being "the one creator god that exists in everything" and has relied on mortals to do all of his heavy lifting? Frankly sounds like a daemon-feeding cult if ever there was one.

>>9931

>>9933

>>9934

>>9935

>>9936

>>9937

The following thread is ripe with material for this topic:

>>351

>>9923

>Has Ragnarok started? If so, how long has it been going on?

The myths are not literal, they are metaphorical. Ragnorok is essentially the Norse version of the Hindu concept of 'Kali Yuga." In other words, it is a metaphor for the final stage of terminal decline and death that all civilizations and cultures go through.

Looking at the state of the modern West, I think it's safe to say that we are, bare minimum, in the early stages of Ragnarok, if not well into it.

>>9941

That's radical, man.

You have my respect for your dedication. Based on your experience, what would you recommend someone who's somewhat familiar with asatru for research and building?

>tfw budding asatruar in the deep south

Things are going to be strange in the coming years.

>>9942

Well, phase one was "know thyself", phase two is "know thy kin", and phase three is "know thy enemy". The PDF thread MEGA.nz has a large body of asatru material to get you started, with something stupid like 5+ different translations of each of the major contemporary texts and a good body of modern asatru-related works.

If you haven't already then obviously get the eddas, beowulf, the nibelunglied, the heimskringla, the works of saxo grammaticus, and pick up the several translations of havamal. For more recent works get "think again (like a heathen)" by michael smith and after that you'll want "summoning the gods" by colin cleary (I can give you that via tox, it's not yet in the archive), then with a bit of grounding in what makes one culturally heathen dive into the section "comparing asatru and wicca" to understand why wicca isn't really heathen and is the very worst of the neo-paganism, in fact after doing so read "against the neo-pagans" by julius evola and you'll find yourself agreeing with him on pretty much everything but the final "so just join catholicism lol" conclusion.

That's a solid basis to stand on and to start breaking down what made you modern and to fill it in with things to make you classic. From there you can look at the other stuff in the archive and see what you want from there, things like study guides, or specific materials that you will understand the cited material on. Also remember that good books are like friends, you don't meet them once and part ways forevermore.

>>9946

I appreciate the help, anon.

May the gods look favorably on you.

Wes thu hal.

>>9948

>>9949

sorry for the doublepost

fix this site, burning chariot

>>9949

>>9948

>>9949

sorry for the doublepost

fix this site, burning chariot

In what manner does the heathen prayer and sacrifice?

Should he only wait until high festivals to offer sacrifice?

>>9970

>In what manner does the heathen prayer and sacrifice?

Sacrifice and interaction isn't limited to the gods, nor is it particularly grandiose or high-sacred as it is commonly depicted. In fact in modern practice it's a bit of a tainted misnomer. It doesn't always involve monumental spillings of blood or painful tithes. In fact something as simple as tossing your compost bin in the forest instead of the compost pit a few times a year would be a nice sacrifice.

Or simply leaving an apple from your lunch in the forest after a peaceful hike as a gesture of good will to the various spirits is a particularly heathen thing to do. Or leaving a dram of mead for the gnomes/elves after a good gardening year. Or most important regularly visiting with and leaving items for the ancestors. These sorts of things are just as much sacrificial as offering a strong horse to Odin or the like. I hammer on this specifically because most people think of sacrifice in the judeo-christian way.

Do I just show up on christmas, give you a single gift, and wait another year to see you? You live imminently amongst your ancestors and various nonhuman spirits here on midgard even more than amongst the gods in asgard yet most people forget them in favor of a few-times-a-year interactions with the gods and only the gods. You can see the silliness after thinking about it as an original heathen would.

>Should he only wait until high festivals to offer sacrifice?

Not at all. Though it's nice to take part in festivals for the sake of community and recognition of important days or events when the energy is just right.

>>9971

Thanks for clarification, anon.

>>9971

>Or most important regularly visiting with and leaving items for the ancestors.

I assume that's for visiting family cemeteries and burial mounds?

If so, what if the ancestors buried there were all Christian or something?

And what about specific prayers?

Do we read out of the Havamal and stuff? Or is it more like a conversation with the ancestors and gods?

If so, are there set prayers that our ancestors prayed?

Concerning the afterlife, I know earlier questions were posed and answered, but I'm still somewhat conflicted.

It's recorded that in addition to Odin and Freya having halls, Thor has his own, too.

Is there any source that says if a person is devoted to a particular god/goddess, they might join them in their hall in asgard upon death (even if they don't die in battle)?

What are some good resources to read if I'm interested in learning more about the Indo-European pagan understanding of time? I've been thinking about it more recently and I feel like this is the key to understanding paganism. Everything seems to fall in place once you start to get it.

>>10022

So, with this all in mind…

>>10000 (GET)

>I assume that's for visiting family cemeteries and burial mounds? If so, what if the ancestors buried there were all Christian or something?

Do we think YHWH has a hall and a host for his souls? I can't really say one way or another, he sure seems to greedily want souls shoveled at him no matter what his followers have to do to get them so it's quite possible.

Did your ancestor live a particularly honourable life and die in a conflict (either a war, or something like being a police officer/firefighter killed in the line of duty)? Or were they particularly evil? Then perhaps they were chosen by blood and deed to be einherjar or denizens of niflheim/niflhel.

In both of those cases they're far away. I can't say what YHWHs visitation policy is for those he has trapped but I'm pretty sure Odin/Freya wouldn't mind letting a soul break away for a few minutes to consult with or console their kin. Hel, I guess it depends how she's feeling at the time for a neutral soul, I'm pretty sure the evil dead are stuck there as slaves until after ragnarok when then and only then they'll get their second chance.

If they saw the futility of christ and/or loved you very much they may well have chosen to go into the mound and try to linger with you as long as possible. My (christian) grandfather died young of an exposure condition and said he was sorry for leaving us so early and would do whatever he could to stay as long as he could… So I can't help but feel this is the case for him, at least. I would say that with no reciprocation or visitation those that go into the mount may eventually elect to move on…

If your ancestor reincarnated you may very well be walking the earth with them. Maybe your cousin is not your cousin? But also perhaps you could talk to their oversoul as their lesser self walks the earth?

In any of the three cases it cannot possibly hurt to try it anyway.

>And what about specific prayers? If so, are there set prayers that our ancestors prayed?

I say this with no NORSE authority, but with magical practice authority that those whom get hung up on wording are missing the point entirely. "Spiritum Speaktomeum" "Kinman spaekí meskr" "Hey dad, I miss you a lot…", the literal words don't matter, the energy of your being, the intention of your soul, those are the things in magic that matter.

>Do we read out of the Havamal and stuff?

Like what, to envoke them? If they don't even know what the havamal is do you really think it would mean anything to them?

>Or is it more like a conversation with the ancestors and gods?

It's conversational same as any other metaphysical relation. It's "spiritual semitism" that has made the spirit world distant and scary. There are stories of men marrying huldr-women and having children, or women marrying sea-spirits and having children or the alfs of the stones coming to help with the harvest… Before christ and his gaggle of wizards cursing "blessing" the land to be uninhabitable to the spirits "them thurr demons" they were not distant or remote at all.

Though you pretty much never speak with the gods directly. As I talked earlier about spirits and their practice, picture it as real life hierarchy. You should talk to your family and neighbors every day or few. So too should you talk to the spirits around you. When you have a problem do you go to the palace? Or your brother/neighbor? You may go to the mayor for a problem if you can't get help from around you, so too with greater spirits like giants or ettins. Only if the world is literally burning and giants are rampaging would you ever run yelling to thor/the king himself.

>>10002

>Is there any source that says if a person is devoted to a particular god/goddess, they might join them in their hall in asgard upon death (even if they don't die in battle)?

Only Odin/Freya care if you die in battle. But the other gods aren't exactly host-keepers as I said. If you were a hero of a given field and an exemplary figurehead like a world renown matron/matriarch you might go to them as a sort of "friggs little helper". Of course, we must always recognise that the written works may be incomplete. Maybe the gods have tons of souls they keep and Odin/Freya are only the super selective ones because they build an army. Maybe you only go to hel if your life was so uninteresting you weren't notibly good at anything. Even the texts fail us so if you wanna hang with Týr by being the best and most heroic damn police officer in the world don't let anything stop you. In our faith you should be trying to be the best damn <thing> anyway as matter of expanding your being and embodying the aspects. Maybe senpai will notice you for it?

>>10023

Final note on specific wording in magic: You may say very specific things to spirits on specific holidays or circumstances because some of them are very easily offended and your ancestors figured out that a specific wording worked and was deemed polite and would convince a spirit of something. It's more like a social handbook for dealing with non-human intelligences than the case that only these exact words in this exact order have COMPULSORY POWER over a being.

You tell me hello and please when you greet me and want something. If you say please am I forced to? If you run up to me and say "you give water me now" I might do it anyway, but it's certainly less likely as I'd think you insane or rude or both.

Invocations of how you'll complain to Thor if they don't leave may compulse them, but it's not the wording itself but rather that they don't want the man with the hammer to come bloody them for breaking the fríd of man and spirit. The word "cop" has no power over me but "leave or I'll call the cops" is very motivating!

>>10019

Go to our Mega.nz archive in this thread:

>>9731

In the "Germanic-Scandinavian-Anglo-Saxon Heathenry" folder in the 8chan Asatru PDF collection, go to folder called "The Well and the Tree."

>>10022

>"Into the mound/mountain"

I've heard this before, I knew that the folk placed a high value on ancestors, but I didn't know there was a belief that ancestors could stay around to help the family.

I don't mean to be prickly, but do we have any sources that confirm such beliefs?

>Or, you can end up in one of the halls

That makes sense to me.

But I suppose a man would have to do something extraordinary to impress the gods, I imagine.

>>10023

>Do we think YHWH has a hall and a host for his souls?

That's something I've meant to address.

What's our attitude toward other gods/godesses?

Are they real and only concern themselves with their people? Or are they the same as ours, just seen differently by other tribes?

In the case of YHWH, is he real for the Jews? Or can he be claimed by anyone of the Canaanite people, since he was their god of war?

>Though you pretty much never speak with the gods directly.

Not even in thanks? Man, that's going to take some time to get accustomed to.

>>10034

>I don't mean to be prickly, but do we have any sources that confirm such beliefs?

Specifically which beliefs? I'll try to flip through my library and recall where I saw whatever it is you wanted sourcing on.

Some basic primers of some of that would be Think Again (Like a Heathen) by Michael Smith, and Reincarnation: Sifting through the evidence by Bill Linzie. Besides general info on the likes of Hel or the halls of other gods which are from the source material specifically, the Eddas, Heimskringla and so on.

If you mean about the spirits, the most of the "-bóks" pertaining to magic and later works like Elves, Wights and Trolls by Kveldulf Gunndarsson.

The good news is everything I just listed is in the library I am procrastinating from building on at this very moment.

>>9731

>But I suppose a man would have to do something extraordinary to impress the gods, I imagine.

I would assume so, yeah. But like I said, perhaps not. Just because something isn't written doesn't mean it isn't real. We grapple with the reality of reconstructing that which was heavily fought against. It could indeed be the fact that all gods have their own hosts and those runestones where it was put down or those skalds who sung of it were merely destroyed or killed.

>That's something I've meant to address. What's our attitude toward other gods/godesses? Are they real and only concern themselves with their people? Or are they the same as ours, just seen differently by other tribes?

That's above my pay-grade to comment on with any authority right now. I would presume some other gods do indeed exist.

>Not even in thanks? Man, that's going to take some time to get accustomed to.

No not at all like that, I just mean in terms of asking them for something you don't go to them first. The reason you nearly never ask them for things is that most things are handled somewhere else, not that you cannot address them.

I notice a lot of metalheads and the like will invoke the gods directly for everything no matter how minor. If you need to clear out your garden this isn't "odin guide me" territory, talk to your alfs and gnomes about that. If you're in a boxing match this isn't "thor guide my fists" time.

You can talk to them any time, but it's not praying to jesus with a wishlist style stuff… Or even a sort of greco-roman thing where you pray to divided gods for "their thing", like to eros or aphrodite for love.

We have an entire world of spirits and beings and while you can talk to them all with soulsight it's just not purposeful to go right to the highest ones for every little thing. Odinn, being wise, patient and fatherly and understanding you were raised in a system that taught you that way would probably tolerate it a few times, but you can see how it would wear thin to be the all-father in constant preparation for ragnarok, managing the einherjar, scrying the universe for answers to protect all life from forces only you alone can fathom much less tackle… and then you feel a jolting of invocation and break a shard of yourself to see what it is about and it's something completely trivial and pointless, by somebody demanding and entitled.

Frankly, I'm sure the LARPists annoy nobody more than the gods themselves.

>>10035

>Specifically which beliefs?

The idea of reincarnation and staying in the "mound".

>The reason you nearly never ask them for things is that most things are handled somewhere else

I see. So all these spirits (some of which I assume include our ancestors) are our immediate go-to's when it comes to need and daily affairs?

>alfs and gnomes

I hate to be such a bother, but exactly how diverse are the spirits that we know of?

Christian here, why do you hate us so much?

>>10034

>I don't mean to be prickly, but do we have any sources that confirm such beliefs?

In the Mega.nz pdf library mentioned earlier, under the "Germanic-Scandinavian-Anglo-Saxon folder", go to the folder "Books by Bil Linzie" and pretty much read 'em all when you can. Especially:

after_life_bil_linzie.pdf

germanic_spirituality.pdf

and

reincarnation2.pdf as mentioned by >>10035

Read those first for answers to your specific questions.

Also under the same "Germanic-Scandinavian-Anglo-Saxon" subfolder, check out the folder "The Road To Hel" and read the pdf in there.

>Or, you can end up in one of the halls

That makes sense to me.

But I suppose a man would have to do something extraordinary to impress the gods, I imagine.

I would err on the side of taking that version of the Heathen afterlife with a skyscraper of salt. It, along with the Eddas have quite a bit of post conversion Christian influence. The "dying into a high god's hall" and having a personal relationship with one is essentially the product of Heathenry being influenced by the Christian (and generally Semitic) afterlife concept of going to a completely separate realm far away from the Earth upon death, as well as the "personal relationship with Christ" concept. Which neatly dovetails into:

>Though you pretty much never speak with the gods directly.

Not even in thanks? Man, that's going to take some time to get accustomed to.

To go into detail on what >>10035 elucidated:

Think of the high gods and goddesses as the equivalent of a tribal chieftain, or a mayor of a city, or even the President of the United States. There function is to protect and serve the tribes and people as a whole. Can you imagine how overkill it would be to drive all the way to the White House to ask the President with help with a minor personal problem of yours?

That's where alfs, land spirits, house spirits, wights, etc. come in. In contrast to the high gods and goddesses, they are your neighbors, friends and kin. Asking a local friendly wight for aid is like walking over to your best buddy's house to talk over a problem. They are the ones you should pray to on a personal level. The high gods and goddesses are for inspiration, and to pray to for major problems, or at high festivals, or to pray with the tribe to for aid. They are more for helping out your family line as a whole, then you as an individual. Bil Linzie's books go into more detail about this.

>>10022

> I'd postulate the truth is probably that she is a dual, schizophrenic, goddess that is both an unfortunately untalented and (socially) awkward but an otherwise caring and well-intentioned hostess of the "neutral dead" (for whom she makes the nicest hall she can, for living alone in the bleakest part of reality), and ALSO a greedy and uncaring soul-driver and tormentor of the dark souls she keeps for her father.

Hel, along with Freya and Frigga (and possibly Freyr), is more than likely just a heavily corrupted version of a much older Germanic goddess like Perchta or Holda:

>>9659

>>9660

>>9807

She probably has nothing to do with Loki, since it is more than likely that the Loki of the Eddas was just a character invented to function as a Norse equivalent of "Satan", since there is no pre-conversion evidence of this version of Loki (even the Snaptun Stone is from 1000 CE, right at the poin that the last of Heathendom was converted.The Kirkby Stone is from around that period as well, and the Gosforth Cross is even later.) Though there is some scant evidence of a Loki existing in pre-Christian times, he was more than likely a just a minor being.

>>10037

Is this bait?

>>10036

Honestly, don't worry to much about diversity and just pray to the local deities as a whole. I remember a discussion on Asatru Lore that basically explained this concept as labeling.

I.e. does this spirit help me? Then she/he is an alf or wight. Does this spirit harm me? Then she/he is a troll or jotunn.

Simple as that.

>>10039

>

>Is this bait?

No bait. Muslims hate us because of "muh crusades" and atheists hate us for obvious reasons, but what's the deal with pagans?

>>10034

>>10035

To go into more detail about "dying into a high god's hall" or having a "personal relationship" with them, or impressing them:

Impressing them to go into their hall is probably along the right train of thought. Both Linzie's works as well as "The Cutlure of the Teutons" (located in the Mega.nz archive under the "Germanic-Scandinavian'Anglo-Saxon" folder, in the subfolder "The Culture of the Teutons) explain Germanic spirituality as being hierarchical. With the gods tending to communicate on a more personal level with heroes, kings etc. Which is probably due to such individuals having the might and magn to carry out the will of the gods in the most effective manner possible.

Though I also have another theory as well to. I do think the high gods communicate with the rest of us occasionally. Just not in a prolonged or regular fashion. Sort've like a CEO at a Yuletide party going around to meet and greet and be warm and friendly with his subordinates.

>>10042

(cont'd)

Or sort've like those times when a President at a rally goes into the crowd and does meeting and greeting, shaking hands, taking pictures, etc.

Forgot my flag :DDD

>>10042

>>10043

Also this, it's an example shared with a lot of other pre-christian traditions. Heracles was hearing from a god every fortnight and eventually went to live with them. It really boils down to how valuable of a person you are. It's one of the things Evola touched on, how a whole city of people can be worth less than their king much like how a whole field of millions of ants is worth less than any one of us. Some power or worth is just not physical or visible to common eyes.

Another point of contention we have with christianity, "we are all equal under christ". Even if you take them at their word that is purely to do with the souls value to the supernatural that is still a level of marxism compared to us. Nobody is equal under Odin by any metric, not even their souls or their spirits. If you are equal in spirit, that at least plants some thoughts of equality, no? If you are equal in soul that exists beyond body, then all other differences are temporal and cosmetic, why NOT start treating each other equally now as it shall be in heaven?