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/agdg/ - Amateur Game Development General

AGDG - The Board

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Winner of the 80rd Attention-Hungry Games
/otter/ - Otter For Your Soul

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May 2019 - 8chan Transparency Report
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Welcome to AGDG, have you ever made a game?
See also: /ideaguy/ | /vm/

File: 1455344467791.jpg (47.42 KB, 590x572, 295:286, feels-bad-man.jpg)

2aba90  No.25275[Reply]

has anyone here actually made money with game dev..?

I can't help but thinking my project will fail and it will be a waste of time. I just realized you need to get voted in to greenlight your game on steam

At first I was going to make an epic game, then realized it would take too much time and money, so I aimed small and decided to make sokoban clone with a different theme and 3d graphics but then realized people might not even want it

what do? m-maybe I shoudl just quit game development and do someting else

35 posts and 2 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

2aba90  No.27699

>>25275

>too much money

Only idiots spend any more than $5000 on a mid-scale project. Use free software, learn a few tricks about each field yourself, and get some low/mid poly art rolling off your free time, then hire people using Blender to work on the bigger stuff for cheap (about maybe $100 a mesh)

So while you're making yourself barrels, crates, and guns, they'll be making people, animals, and cool autistic machinery.


2aba90  No.27722

I sincerly don't mind making any money out of it. I don't play any vidya-game or anything. I just try to make it for fun, it's the only fun thing I'm able to do alone. I, to this day, never finished anything and I kinda feel bad about it. Though it is not a requirement to recognized for my work, I just wish for someone to appreciate my work. All I want is a "that's nice" from a none-programmer. I envy this feeling. All I do is only able to give me recognition among other classmate that look to my screen and sometime a teacher or two because they rarely seem anyone really enjoying programming in this decade.

Put the hearth you got during your childhood in your game. Don't do something simple, nor to complicated, express yourself. Isn't it an art in the end? Just keep on programming games, opportunnity will be more abundant in front of your eyes if you're getting better.

english isn't my main language, t.frenchSpeaking


2aba90  No.27727

>>25279

>Uncanny Valley

trash like undercancer and risk of brain damage got popular, so why not a shitty two-bit jewtube bait game?


2aba90  No.27763

Yes, all of my games have generated over $100k in revenue OP.

I have fans who call me on my cell phone. People send me emails telling me how my games have changed their lives.

I don't really do social media. I sell my games as products, and I treat what I do as a business. I do not need game sites to feature or review my games in order to sell them.


2aba90  No.27766

>>27763

It seems like to me that the only way you can get anywhere in game development anymore is if you use your game as a soapbox for liberal propaganda (see: sjwtale, starjew valley, diary of a spaceport tranny).

How do you sell your games if they don't pander to the liberal propaganda machine and as you say, don't need to get featured or reviewed?




File: 7858d9a629c8539⋯.jpg (7.4 KB, 222x227, 222:227, tomorrow[1].jpg)

7171f0  No.27731[Reply]

I just can't work, every time I start up even the ideas/tasks .txt file I just get turned off completely. it's like something inside me just sas "no".

not a loud and scary "no", just a "no" that quietly saps my entire life force.

the game is near completion, only need to add the last few social media shits(which I fucking hate, maybe that's it ?), I even know how to, I just can't bring myself to do it.

what THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH ME?

does it have to do with the fact that I was beaten/emotionally abused since I was 5 and maybe I just can't process happiness/winning that well?

please help

1 post omitted. Click reply to view.

7171f0  No.27734

>>27733

"I just can't work, every time I start up even the ideas/tasks .txt file I just get turned off completely. it's like something inside me just says "no"."


7171f0  No.27740

The problem is that you're a faggot.


7171f0  No.27744

File: 32470dffb02d890⋯.gif (216.93 KB, 436x396, 109:99, 1443422093554.gif)


7171f0  No.27752

>>27744

sorry, I thought the life of a dev is 99% procrastination and this thread would be good for all


7171f0  No.27753

>>27744

oh and thank you




File: 1463744931030.png (39.81 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, haxe_flixel_logo_for_slide….png)

ce048d  No.26812[Reply]

Is it any good?

http://haxeflixel.com/

ce048d  No.26816

>>26812

Seems like it.


ce048d  No.26821


ce048d  No.27747

It is.




File: 1411071979842.png (227.65 KB, 1739x1774, 1739:1774, gmslogo1.png)

7debb4  No.29[Reply]

So this is going to be a new general in here I guess, suggest links.

>GameMaker:Studio Homepage

http://www.yoyogames.com/
>GameMaker:Studio Marketplace
https://marketplace.yoyogames.com/

Who master collection here?
296 posts and 49 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

7debb4  No.27381

>>27379

Game Maker is the best 2D game engine period, it's a good choice unless you want to use some shitty drag and drop engine. Unity and Unreal add a level of complexity that isn't necessarily worth it unless you also want to make 3D games.

There's always the option of using a library or something with less UI, but that requires you to rely on your programming skills a lot more.

Also, it's worth noting that since you're just beginning, you want something that has a large community because that allows you to find help for all kinds of little questions a lot easier.


7debb4  No.27735

Torn between being a cheap fuck and getting Game Maker Pro for $1 or whatever the minimum is, or just buying the larger bundle to get access to Android stuff.

Is GM good for Android games?


7debb4  No.27737

>>27735

I thought the same thing when I've heard about the bundle, ended up buying the full packet, just because I never know when I have an idea for some silly viral android game since he android export is expensive usually.

And even if I fail, since game maker was the first thing that let me made an actual working game that I enjoyed making, it's worth the $15.


7debb4  No.27738

>>27737

Yeah I did the same. Hard to leave it at that price since I'll more than likely want to have a play around with it if nothing more.


7debb4  No.27786

So i've done this


if type = network_type_disconnect{
playerleaving = ds_list_find_index(listedsockets, sockinlist);
global.playerout = playerleaving;
with obj_player{
if controlledby = global.playerout{
instance_destroy();
}
}
}

and my problem is that, since every socket is called sockinlist, it always returns 1 no matter which socket i access because, according to GM help "Note that if there are more than one entries in the list with the same value, the position of any one of them may be returned"

So, how do i get the sockets to have different names? because i need the position which is gonna be parsed into the ID of the player disconnected.




File: dd57f3aeade35ae⋯.png (2.89 MB, 1920x954, 320:159, 687474703a2f2f692e696d6775….png)

43bcfd  No.27729[Reply]

I wanted to share with you this thing.

Is basically a custom rendered for Panda3d (really), it has PBR and that post 2013 kinda look to it.

https://github.com/tobspr/RenderPipeline



File: 1466540783324.gif (98.02 KB, 500x364, 125:91, ss.gif)

b673da  No.27042[Reply]

Hey.

How to write interesting, non-cliche characters? Any tips?

12 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.

b673da  No.27517

by considering nietzche work, a ubermansch needs to suffer to get the state of mind of a hero.


b673da  No.27536

File: 1470748050302.jpg (676.64 KB, 960x1200, 4:5, 05271612ac131713d26357cdc1….jpg)

OP, you should take the advice of >>27054 a lot more seriously than you did. A fixation on originality over general quality of content is a primary indicator of an inexperienced author. If you want to avoid cliches, the biggest cliche to avoid is that of the teenage writer who is so obsessed with not being cliche that they forget to attend to the quality of their story.

It's more important for characters to be relatable, believable, and likable than it is for them to be unique. As the old demotivator goes, a fork with each prong bending in a different direction is certainly unique, but it's not a very good fork. Worry about making something good before you try to jump into making something that's NEVA BEEN DUN BEFO.


b673da  No.27543

don't worry about being cliche first of all


b673da  No.27544

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>27543

[premature reply]

I wrote out a long post but then realized I have no experience only intuition

watch this vid.

its all about introducing characters to develop aspects of another character's personality and tricks for "visualizing"

play a game and try as hard as possible to dissociate from yourself and have empathy for the side characters

for example, play a JRPG (hard mode: xenogears) and think about every characters past and why is justifies their current attitudes and traits

be autistic and motherly


b673da  No.27728

>>27091

>>27092

Read some real books man, real western stories that have adventure and are written well.

The writing helps me find inspiration and think more clearly and see characters in action and formation. I recently got into "metro 2033" which inspired the game of the same name and "treasure island" which inspired "treasure planet".

i believe it really helps to see how a professional does it, almost like doing your own English class book report just without writing the report. You can study the workings of the writing still.




File: 1471584076714.jpg (11.39 KB, 360x240, 3:2, Count.jpg)

2ef5ff  No.27603[Reply]

I do design and programming stuff, but I'm shit at math. I want to do some brushup on algebra and stuff, and build up to be able to handle more complex stuff. Problem is my attention span and comprehension is shit because a lot of guides, online academies, whatever are really boring in presentation and can't get through to me. Is there any particular guides that give context to the math and show practical, real world use of it, especially in games? Extra credit if they explain these things in bizarre ways that serve as great memotics for formulas and their uses. Extra extra credits if they're presented in imageboard levels of fun.

2 posts omitted. Click reply to view.

2ef5ff  No.27607

>>27606

Khan Academy I've looked at, but it was one of the examples of being really boring in presentation. It's just math class in high school, just in a video instead of a textbook.

>>27604

Ah I think I've seen this ages ago and forgot about it. I'll check them again and see if I can follow them better than I could back then.


2ef5ff  No.27610

Anything on higher level dimensional mathematics, how to understand them, and how to apply them to game graphics?

Related to this: http://chrishecker.com/My_liner_notes_for_spore


2ef5ff  No.27618


2ef5ff  No.27692

there's a thread in >>/prog/ recommending books. Seems good, check it out.


2ef5ff  No.27710

>>27607

>Khan Academy wasn't engaging enough for me

Buckle down and stop being a bitch. If Khan Academy with its points, levelling system, ranks, achievements, etc isn't engaging enough for you then you're fucked. No book is gonna do it for you. Khan Academy is about as fun as math gets. There are plenty of well-made videos and all kinds of shit.

Maybe you tried it a long time ago? It's gotten much better in recent years. Otherwise, stop being an ADD faggot and just do it.




File: 08610dd974f2ae9⋯.gif (96.4 KB, 300x100, 3:1, 1417368327802.gif)

e5c2d1  No.27694[Reply]

Humble Bundle is selling GameMaker Pro+a bunch of export modules+some games and their source code for $15 bucks.

Or you can pay 1 cent and just get GM Pro.

e5c2d1  No.27701

Thanks dude, I actually got the $15 bundle and now I'm wondering if it's worth trying to make some android games. For money of course.




File: 7f1eba1e933e3cc⋯.png (272.29 KB, 560x560, 1:1, carlos.png)

bbe58b  No.27687[Reply]

Hello my fellow goyim,

Does anyone know the fastest way to render a texture on screen? I'm currently drawing a primitive using device->DrawPrimitive and device->SetTexture to render it.

bbe58b  No.27689

Not very familiar with c++ and directx. I've been dealing with simpler languages most of my time. Been learning C++ recently hence why I have no clue.


bbe58b  No.27698

>>27687

xyproblem.info

fucking faggot


bbe58b  No.27700

>>27698

No I'm asking a simple question.

What is the fastest way to render a texture in directx?

It's not x or y, it's as simple as that.


bbe58b  No.27709

>>27700

enjoy your failure




File: 8b232278e72a177⋯.jpg (289.19 KB, 1440x900, 8:5, fantasy_world_3-1440x900.jpg)

26fd09  No.27686[Reply]

This thread is for discussing worldbuilding, lore, naming characters/locations, and asking misc questions about how to implement something that fits with the setting of a game. All the lore/story of your game can be discussed in this thread.

26fd09  No.27704

File: 0cb4732cb883695⋯.png (12.64 KB, 528x404, 132:101, spurdo_face.png)

Gread thread :DDDD




YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

d68f7f  No.26836[Reply]

I've got the basic mechanics of my boxing game working, and my artist/3d modelling/animator person will be free in a few weeks to work

looking for a writefag to write a story for this, since i wanted it to be sort of a yakuza-like rpg, while also having simple boxing combat

i've got a sort of working tree-based dialogue system

i should note, that you'd be working for free, since i'm as poor as a gypsy, and just want to make a game

6 posts and 2 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

d68f7f  No.26865

File: 1464341610252-0.png (18.03 KB, 412x287, 412:287, 97c3be2ab108fa484fa5d69b78….png)

File: 1464341610253-1.mp4 (7.83 MB, 854x480, 427:240, poorlittlewhiteguy.compres….mp4)

well, i added the option for multiple enemies in a fight. haven't done allies since then i have to handle enemies choosing who to attack

dialogue/boxing AI now overwrites the old one when i save, before it was deleting it, and that cause me to constantly have to manually re-pick which ones the AI used

i would make an entire video of the thing, but my toaster shits itself midway because of fraps. when i turn fraps off it works fine again. and the game still somehow works better in the editor than the built version, regardless of resolutions. can't tell if i'm doing everything retardedly considering how bloated my scripts have become, i probably am or if it's just unity


d68f7f  No.26866


d68f7f  No.26902

File: 1464616922297.mp4 (7.39 MB, 854x480, 427:240, punchedoverride.mp4)

so i got the AI to use another tree when it gets hit

basicly, the AI gets hit, and then a bool is set to true

while it's true, the AI uses a different script, until that script reaches a StopOverride node

if the override script is null, the character just does the regular animations for getting hit

so for example, i put this on everyone except hitler - if they're less than 1.25 meters away from me, they dodge

the dodge function first checks if my punch is null. if not, the character dodges in the opposite direction of the punch. if it is null, they dodge backwards

and right now, since this happens after i've punched, my punch is null, so everytime the override tree activates, the AI almost definitely dodges backwards

now i've got finals this month so i probably won't have time to do anything. after i fail them and stop myself from killing myself, i'll start implementing rounds


d68f7f  No.27158

Contact Disloyal Heretic on Skype.

I've had consulting experience before (someone was making a comic and needed historically accurate advice) and used to write short stories (science fiction and historical non/fiction). I do /pol/ too which might help writing Hitlerian dialogue.


d68f7f  No.27537

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

wew, i didn't think the thread would stay alive for so long

update/rework #3




File: 1468312920365.jpg (211.06 KB, 1920x1080, 16:9, maxresdefault.jpg)

49909a  No.27241[Reply]

I really, REALLY want to hear your opinions on this.

8 posts omitted. Click reply to view.

49909a  No.27359

File: 1469194706129-0.jpg (85.45 KB, 619x386, 619:386, pokemongo-619-386.jpg)

File: 1469194706129-1.jpg (179.93 KB, 1080x1920, 9:16, CnDiBcDUEAIgJYA.jpg large.jpg)

Surveillance paid for by the masses themselves.


49909a  No.27434

>>27262

this tbh fam

install gentoo now.


49909a  No.27509

it's genius as a marketing platform. being able to directly pay for foot traffic instead of ad impressions is something we haven't seen before, at least on this scale.

the game itself needs a lot of work. niantic obviously didn't foresee the success and I have no idea how they're going to moderate such a large user base, especially with the apparent conflicts of interest. cheating is also an issue I don't see them solving, made worse by the game's semi competitive nature.

only just started playing but I'm already a bit skeptical about the mechanics. I'm guessing the success so far is mostly from the social aspect, which could keep it going indefinitely. not sure if just adding new pokemon is enough to keep people's interest once players enter the late game. they'll definitely come up against more competition now that they've proven the idea.


49909a  No.27510

I think it's not a game, it's fucking boring, it's a data tracking app, it's a real life meme.

I don't give a shit about it, I will continue to emulate old pokemon games as usual.


7c2b1d  No.29331

fix




File: 1470418880734.jpg (2.37 MB, 2800x4000, 7:10, 1439166406792.jpg)

f74983  No.27502[Reply]

Come watch/add some AGDQ/Speed runs/Vidya with like minded people - https://www.cytu.be/r/SpeedRunGeneral



File: 1468850388232.png (175.92 KB, 423x620, 423:620, special color.png)

e8dcb9  No.27297[Reply]

I have given up hope of there being another good Fallout game but I have a lot of ideas. So much so that I might as well make a new different game which is probably never going to happen. FO1's and FO2's skills were never designed to be "balanced" (Melee Weapon and Unarmed have an unnaturally high initial value to compensate for its general inferiority). While I don't completely agree on a lot of design choices of the good Fallout titles, I don't want to imply that I know Fallout better than the designers so I'll first stick to general ideas.

I would change how Intelligence work. Having a fixed number of skill points per level would make balancing a lot easier. Instead skills would have skill caps (not in increments; only enough to punish extreme lows and extreme highs would be rewarded with perks) based on the SPECIAL stats especially INT. Low INT would cap a lot of skills very low in the same way that Low INT in Fallout would give you very little skill points to spend per level. These skill caps could also buff some of the chems and nerf the skill magazines. I would divide the skills into 16 skills but I'll only post them if anyone is interested.

I was thinking of adding a fourth layer character customization (SPECIAL, Skills, Perks). I couldn't think of a fancy name for it so I'll call it Conditioning meaning the opposite of SPECIAL which intended to represent latent or potential ability. Conditioning increases every level like skills but it isn't part of stat checks. Conditioning usually serves the following purpose:

1) Decreasing the chances of negative outcomes happening such as critical failures or failures from not meeting the guaranteed success threshold.

2) Tie-breaking situations like turn order.

3) Small increases in minor attributes like how quickly one can recover from status effects.

Here are the general ideas:

>Composure

Reduces the chances of fucking up in battle like critical failures.

>Will

Reduces the chances of getting critially hit and getting status effecPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

5 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.

e8dcb9  No.27390

Trying to make a magical girl game where a guy who turns into a tentacle monster accidentally replaces the familiars of the group of magical girls and is forced to act as source of their mana. It would stay in their school dorm until magic for turning him back is found.

The gameplay would involve the monster making itself useful and gaining the affection of the girls, managing their stress, schooling and popularity. Basically dating sim w/ rpg elements .

Here are some ideas for stats

> Tentacle PC

> Money- hollah hollah lotta dollar-can buy gifts and set up dates. Gain more money through keeping the magical girl popular.

> Mana pool - your personal pool of magical energy, which can grow by consuming monsters magical girls defeat. Can buy certain stats and perks by temporarily reducing max mana for a period of time. Can recharge each girl through lewd acts such as kissing to debauchery of handholding. Recharging in public can run the risk of reducing the girl's popularity.

> stamina- how many stuff you can do per day.

> durability- body's durability used to do determine what type of errands the tentacles can do, and if it can tank hits for magical girls.

> body type- modify tentacle body, or make a exoskeleton- from shoddy human shell to magnificent Tentacle Rider suit. B

> tentacles- open up new functions and shapes for tentacles.

Magical Girl

> popularity- popularity of magical girl. High popularity will cause proportionately higher stress. Low popularity means you'll get less money.

> stress- high stress will cause the girls to get sick. If high stress is maintained for a long time the girl will die... No, but you will be kicked out of magical girl school for being a shitty familiar.

> mana- proportional to the relationship and inversely proportional to stress. Mana allows the mg to be more powerful in combat(spPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


e8dcb9  No.27391

File: 1469584038410-0.png (226.02 KB, 750x1091, 750:1091, 20111118-pissworld.png)

File: 1469584038410-1.png (574.18 KB, 640x480, 4:3, ClipboardImage.png)

>>27390

That sounds like a spin-off of iDOLM@STER with injecting your weird fetish. Admittedly, it sounds unique enough being Magical Girl Manager.

Please work on your excuse plot.

>>27297

Clarify what I meant. In Fallout, the V.A.T.S. percentages never goes higher than 95%. This is a carry over of the rule in DnD where at least one side of d20 has to be dedicated to a miss. The new stat system suppose to deal with that 5% as a baseline.

>>27374

>Give bonuses for having high composure instead, for example bonus damage/crit chance.

Luck already increases crit rate.


e8dcb9  No.27436

>>27297

Let me drop my analysis of the three portions of Fallout 1's RPG stat system.

SPECIAL/Attributes-

These serve the purpose of defining the strengths and weaknesses of a character that cannot be changed by leveling up. This is the GURPS component in that investing in a strength means creating a weakness.

Skills-

Whereas each attribute represents a fundamental portion of the game, skills represent specific abilities such as fighting with a particular weapon or picking locks. Though there is an opportunity cost for allocating skill points, the benefit of a jack-of-all trades is diminished by the TAG(that doubles the points allocated toward three chosen skills), skill checks in dialogue(wherein a dialogue option or action is only available with proficiency in a skill), and perks(which can rely on skills). As a result the player is forced to weigh the benefits of spreading their points out with funneling them into a couple stats to impact a crucial ability early in the game.

Perks-

Perks act to cement the archetypes a particular skill/SPECIAL combination is compatible with. Though the stat-based perks are very useful, it's primarily the ability o bend or break the game's rules that makes particular play styles possible, even if only at very high levels.


e8dcb9  No.27447

>>27297

you made dnd


e8dcb9  No.27490

File: 1470328272349-0.png (244.71 KB, 753x657, 251:219, FO1protag.png)

File: 1470328272349-1.png (10.87 KB, 148x65, 148:65, ClipboardImage.png)

>>27297

>>27436

Analysis of how the stat system was implemented:

1) SPECIAL

It was made as a replacement of GURPS. Bethesda clearly only likes it because it is a fancy acronym. All of the Bethesda SPECIAL videos are cancer. While I like to shit on Bethesda for making it easy to max out, they aren't the only ones the likes to increase its value. FO2 and FO:NV have a lot of ways to permanently increase a SPECIAL stat. Even devs that are not Bethesda, fell into temptation of giving out permanent SPECIAL stat increases due to the perceived sense of progress. That is why I wanted to add the stat system that I posted in OP. Also, Gifted is pretty OP; it might as well been called Easy Mode. There is also how little SPECIAL affects Skills (minus Intelligence but in the way that I meant). You can have 1 Charisma but have 100 Speech. FO:NV distinguished between base SPECIAL and altered SPECIAL which I think that is an improvement.

While I like the SPECIAL system, I find some of the ways that it is balanced questionable. Agility is very important in FO1/2 and not so much in FO:NV. Intelligence is a little too OP but dumbing it down to FO4 level was retarded. It was the only stat that needed to be high early on to reap the most benefit. Charisma is very OP in FO2 and kind of useless in FO:NV. Strength was the easiest to boost and Luck was the hardest to boost. While Obsidian showed the Skill requirement in order to make it more accessible, it hid the SPECIAL and Perk requirement unless you fulfill it which leads to some interesting surprises.

2) Skills

Unlike SPECIAL, Skills are intended to go up every level. In FO1/2, Skills were never designed around being balanced. There were shit skills. overpowered skills, and skills that seems pointlessly split. Skills like Melee Weapons and Unarmed were never really good choices for Tag Skills and they start out with a much higher base stat then something like Small Guns, Big Guns, or Energy Weapons. I have a feeling this was intended considering all the preset chaPost too long. Click here to view the full text.




File: 1469484424488.jpg (577.88 KB, 2256x1250, 1128:625, pic unrelated.jpg)

4b8675  No.27383[Reply]

Why don't group projects ever work, or even get started to begin with?

How can we fix this?

I want to contribute art and designs and maybe small bits of code to a game project where other people do most of the programming, because I'm not so good at it myself. I crave to design worlds for a game, but this kind of projects seem nearly nonexistent and you need to be crazy good (usually with many things at once) to be hired in a studio.

I've been waiting for so long for an interesting project to surface, but it never seems to happen. Or am I not looking in the right places?

23 posts and 3 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

4b8675  No.27466

>>27461

Btw, yes, you are right, I sounded like an idea guy even if I tried to say the opposite. I should have stated first that my main occupation is programming which is 98% of the work , and then on top of that I would keep the git repo and the design documents clean.


4b8675  No.27471

File: 1470241854690.jpg (97.7 KB, 633x742, 633:742, 1469347515772-4.jpg)

How about this:

Ideaguy drops a design document for a very short and simple 2d game

Artists do their thing

Musician do theirs

Programmers gets all the assets and put it to work.

???

Profit.

Pro


4b8675  No.27472

>>27471

Hey, if that was the deal, I'm all in. I'd even manage code audits and pull requests for the central repo.

It would have to be GPL, though, so that no one faggot involved can try to hijack the thing somehow for themselves.


4b8675  No.27475

>>27472

Well, Just wait for our game designer, considering the immense amount of nodevs we have around here, someone might want to collaborate.


4b8675  No.27476

Well it's not like a designer will fell off from the sky. If a team group up and nobody has previous experience with pure game design the best solution is to implement one system foreach guy involved, so that each one has only to name sure his system is fun




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